45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body

Nobody I know whos been in the service liked the M9. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. Creatine is an amino acid located mostly in your body's muscles as well as in the brain. Meaning the shooter, where a second shot will go off up in the air. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? The quibble is over. The answer is Yes. Id use either! But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. The money has to come from somewhere. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. The point here is this: it is okay that the Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command has decided to issue only Glock 19's. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. Owned a model 29 .357 Interesting. The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). Hogwash!! 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). F=MA is not applicable. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. Do your thing, your responsible for your actions! The .22, meanwhile. I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. 9mm. I imagine humans are the same. But only weighed 140 lbs then. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. Make your best shot number one. Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. There is little or no noticeable difference in wound tracks between 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto premium line rounds. We look forward to serving you. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. Has the Marine Corp's choice to transition from 45 ACP to 9mm duty pistols settled the debate on which caliber is better? When the weather is colder and requires a jacket or coat, I carry my Glock 30s, extra mag for either. In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as knock-down power. The only thing that can knock a target down is physiological incapacitation or psychological stress. at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. Slow him down, double up, spin/alter his track-anything to allow you to get that second shot and the empty the clip. But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. The science says otherwise. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? Opinions all ! Request product info from top Ammunition companies. Daniel, the US has generally abided by the Hague (and Geneva) Conventions and their respective protocols. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. With civilians Mosher shootings occur within 7 yards thats 21 feet are closer usually closer. Overall I enjoyed reading your piece and found it noteworthy that Smith&Wesson ( one of the great disappointments of this and the last century) was eliminated from the contract competition. View our Terms of Service I have several calibers, personally I like my Sig 239 40cal as my sidearm ! For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. FN DUH! This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. Poor light and unplanned obstacles are common in real-life self-defense scenarios. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. I prefer the .45 ACP. Example; a bb to the eyeball is very effective. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended Practice, practice, practice. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. I like all of them. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. You can have all the knockdown power in the world but unless you place it thats going to do the most damage then it doesnt matter if its a 9 millimeter or 45. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. Any other manufacturers that have been notified that they are not going to be selected may be waiting for the DoD to make the official announcement. The pistol with speed loaders will get me to the riffels then game over if not over yet. Their over 800 FPS and some approaching 900 FPS with the hotter +P loads. We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. For those not in the military, go for what you want. But I understand the 9 isnt on level with the 45 and know unless a headshot presents itself I will have to dump my mag 7+1 into whoever makes me engage them for a favorable outcome. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. Fire Rate: 240 In other words slower bullet JHP more energy transferred more effective. I have most of the makers revolver & simi-auto, in most of the major calibers. That use the same ammo is the way for me. Been hunting 49 years. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. I totally agree about shot placement. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. Shooting light steel target that doesnt allow penetration at all vs a human body is a little bit different. That has been the best comment so far. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. to stop the threat. Spend the little extra money and get the 5.56 chambered AR so you can safely shoot the higher pressure and accurate 5.56 ammunition and leave the .223 in the store. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. These are the only two factors you can expect to remain constant in any situation. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. EVER! All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. How many decades are we going to have this debate? By submitting your information, you agree to be contacted by the selected vendor(s) Shot placement rules. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. During the last 15 years in LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. We report stories that would go untold. Oh yeahMale mental dropped like a 50 pound bag of sand. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. Thank you. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. Is it comfortable for you to carry and shoot and are you accurate and reasonably quick in getting it from concealment to shooting? Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. Which Id be inclined to think a .45 would transfer more force more immediately taking the spirit out of most. Because size is king? Guns dont kill people. Officer Needs Help!!! Like cars and motorcycles its all a matter of preference for each individual.God Bless America and May God keep us safe so we dont ever have to be put in a situation to have to find out. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. Over the years I have owned and carried many 1911s. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. I carry a 9mm myself, and train to rapid fire. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? It is a very real possibility and one that should be considered. SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. Ret. Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. However, I purchased the 9 mm because for a carry gun I feel safer with the style of firearm I bought for daily carry purposes. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. The FBI just did the same thing. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. Hollow points also create a larger temporary cavity. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? The main reason I now have a 9 mm is that at the time, I could not find a small enough 45 that was double action. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. The results may surprise many as it did myself. Which would put a bullet in the lower chest area with variance of the bullet which can be 2-3 or even 5-6. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. Your shot placement will be perfect. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. A 1911 in 9MM? I shot Master for a while. Taurus 45 The objective of this study was to construct a A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy Wellcome L0024127.jpg 1,080 1,787; 799 KB. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. 9mm beats .45acp. This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. Among other things, this This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. I sure do love 45acp though. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. Vital organs sit deep within the human body, so penetration and permanent cavity volume are important factors. For a tommygun, I'd probably go with 1d8 base damage, +1 magical weapon bonus to represent penetration and damage, and the ability to make a cone area attack (save or take damage). Just saying. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. Be Safe Out There. Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. So you can rely on us to provide quality pre-owned weapons backed by our famous guarantee. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. He was 15.. The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was The average criminal etc. Can someone comment on this? So its purpose is based on design. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. If I knew for certain I was going to use my gun Id pack the .45 all the time. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. The Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. That is those of us that has and carries guns. We enjoy our 2nd amendment and want it protected and were prepared to give our life to defend our country. Shot placement is not a variable, it is a constant. Shorter barrels or longer range of initial impact will likewise decrease the possibility of expansion. Every round has its purpose. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. Just wanted to throw that against the wall. The debate isnt settled. I like to shoot three-four people a weektime permitting, of course. The one he found had the best chance was the .357 magnum. Damage: 23. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. So, the answer is simple, right? Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. All rights reserved. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. One thing to note is that for more most applications the military is restricted to FMJ loads. WebA 9mm -40 - 357sig -45 ACP all do about 11-13" penetration into the human body no temporary wound cavity, and the diamiter differnce is from 9mm(.355(.357 caliber)) to 11.5mm(.45 caliber). It makes a bigger hole. Gimme a break! Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. WebHuman Body 101 | National Geographic National Geographic 21.2M subscribers Subscribe 52K 3.3M views 5 years ago How does the human body work? The Krag was a failure for two reasons. Wounding one enemy combatant to take three out of the fight (or at least two) was a good argument when we were facing civilized enemies such as the Germans in WW II. However, from close enough range you could manage. This is because, unless you get a central nervous system hit extremely difficult there is no physiological reason a target would become incapacitated until blood loss and extreme loss of blood pressure occurs. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! Thank you Bill ! I carry a 10auto. I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then.